Pleasing God Podcast
Pleasing God Podcast
Balancing Acts: Harmonizing Marriage and Ministry Challenges
Balancing the demands of marriage and ministry can feel like walking a tightrope. Join us as Katelyn and I open up about our unique journey, shedding light on how we've navigated the highs and lows of serving in ministry as a couple. From our humble beginnings in a Sunday school class to embracing the roller coaster of pastoral life, we reveal how a shared mission and teamwork have helped us safeguard our marriage from being overshadowed by church responsibilities. Discover how we’ve managed to prioritize our family while wholeheartedly committing to our church community.
The life of a pastor’s family, particularly on Sundays, can feel intense and overwhelming, yet it’s filled with unique blessings. We share the physical and mental demands we face—from preparing sermons to engaging with congregants—alongside the responsibilities of raising our children. Despite these challenges, profound joy and fulfillment emerge from witnessing the positive impact of ministry on people’s lives. Our personal anecdotes underscore the significance of having a clear mission statement to stay committed through the ups and downs, and we reflect on the vital role of a supportive church community in managing these dynamics.
Communication is the cornerstone of a thriving marriage in ministry. We explore open dialogue about victories and challenges, highlighting the importance of considering a spouse as a primary teammate. Our story emphasizes the necessity of setting boundaries to prevent burnout and keep household harmony intact. Reflecting on a commitment made 12 years ago, we continue to honor our dedication to both family and church.
Stock Music provided by wolfgangwoehrle, from Pond5
Hi and welcome back to the Pleasing God podcast, a weekly show focused on helping Christians to think biblically, engage practically and live faithfully for the glory of God. I'm your host, jonathan Soule, and I'm joined again with my lovely wife, caitlin. Hello. Hey we're gonna have a conversation. Sure, all right, is this? We're going to have a conversation. Sure, all right. Is this an installment on imperfect marriage?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think so.
Speaker 1:Okay, what do you want to talk about?
Speaker 2:I think today we're going to talk about marriage within ministry.
Speaker 1:Marrying the ministry.
Speaker 2:No, not marrying the ministry, married in ministry.
Speaker 1:Married in ministry.
Speaker 2:That's very different.
Speaker 1:Yeah, some people marry the ministry. Some people divorce their wives without divorcing their wives and marry the ministry and it's a shame. And the wife becomes second fiddle to all the demands of the people and she is shamed if she feels like she comes in the way, if the marriage relationship gets in the way of the ministry, and so she needs to do a good job of freeing her husband up so that he's always available for whatever the demands of ministry are. That's a bad model.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and we're going to talk about how we've kind of safeguarded from that.
Speaker 1:Yes. So don't do that and establish that early on. So yeah, we can talk a little bit about our history. And I mean, if it wasn't for ministry, we wouldn't have met.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that's the place we should start in that. I know in the past, in past podcasts, we've told our story and have mentioned this, but really our whole relationship started from us working together in ministry. We were both leading a Sunday school class for students, and so all we've ever really known is a relationship within serving together in ministry.
Speaker 1:Yeah, serving together. I mean in almost every one of our ministries we've been doing it together. Yeah, serve in a unique role that in many ways comes alongside me and does enable me to do a lot of the things that I need to do in that pastoral, male pastoral role that I could not do without you, and that's certainly a support role there, but that's ministry as well, for sure. Yeah started out in the Sunday school class and got to know one another just by serving together. And man is that awesome.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:It's just you're loving Jesus together, but more than just individuals loving Jesus together, we're loving Jesus together and serving his church and that just creates a bond. Yeah, I think just creates a bond yeah. I think that's so important. And yeah, our ministry led to marriage, but we didn't marry the ministry.
Speaker 2:No, so our original start was in that Sunday school class and then it morphed into youth group. Then you kind of became the what was your official title Student ministry leader. It was not youth pastor.
Speaker 1:Correct, that was what you did in function, but that wasn't the title of it, so it starts out as youth intern.
Speaker 2:Yeah, youth intern was the start.
Speaker 1:Every one of the titles that I've ever had in this church are the ones that I've said, hey, shouldn't I be called? This every one of all the way you know um. So it was youth intern director of, then promoted to director, director of Student Ministries, then Pastor of Youth and Families.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:What was the other one?
Speaker 2:Which that just was part of the umbrella of what you were overseeing.
Speaker 1:Then Associate Pastor and some people didn't understand. Associate Assistant and whatever, and associate assistant and whatever, and now officially pastor of leadership and education, which is leading and teaching.
Speaker 2:I guess. So at this point you were youth intern right when we took over or started youth group. Yes, yeah, what was that?
Speaker 1:2014, 13?.
Speaker 2:No, I had Marley, so 2014, 15.
Speaker 1:14.
Speaker 2:But anyways, that consisted a lot of you preaching at youth group and doing Sunday school together.
Speaker 1:Well, the Sunday school started in 2012.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Because that's when we met.
Speaker 2:Right, and then that was. It had morphed into us, then taking on a youth group. It started to grow Situation yeah.
Speaker 1:And from the Sunday school the nucleus of Sunday morning started to grow there of this group of students and then a youth group, then the outreach and man. Those are some fun times.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I remember, you know, I I didn't really have a huge role, uh, in that season. I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't think, because I mean I was having baby after baby, after baby in those years, um, but I remember, you know, going over to the church and putting down babies for naps while we were there for youth group.
Speaker 1:You didn't just stay home with your kids and not do anything?
Speaker 2:No.
Speaker 1:Good.
Speaker 2:Maybe, yeah, no, I remember Marley being really small and bringing her to youth group, and then Harry and then Oliver and it kind of was just what it was. We went to church and did youth group and then harry and then oliver and they kind of just just what it was. We went to church, um, and and did youth group, but I remember you know, my sole focus was the children but, um, just being there as just a support to you, you know, juggling kids, naps and all that kind of stuff.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and we had, I mean, a lot of support. Family that would come at times and watch the kids in the house once they got a little older.
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah, yeah, I do remember that too. We had some family taken, like Marley and Harry, for the evenings that we could, and that was their service to us to be able to then go and serve the church in that way, which was really sweet.
Speaker 1:So, when we talk about not marrying, the ministry there is on the other side of things, though don't let the pendulum swing to the other side, and what we demonstrate to our children by what we do in modeling is that the local church matters and that ministry is important. And so, when they were young and we're going out, we're not neglecting them, because a lot of times and what we have done is we've brought them in and alongside of, but having children does not mean that's my. All of a sudden, I'm out of ministry.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it was helpful for us. We had an elder in our church who at the time, who really was safeguarding us as a young family, a big priority of his was helping you have a good balance of work, ministry and then family. And I think from the very start we found a really good balance of that where you weren't out multiple times a week and there was plenty of family time at home, but then we would go out and do youth group together. So I think there was a good balance of we served together but we also had family time at home, and then there were times where you had to go out and do youth group for a while too.
Speaker 1:Yeah, in those early years for sure, because ministry, student ministry, but all ministry is unpredictable, right, you can't predict the crisis, the emergency, when it's a true emergency and there has to be a willingness to hold time loosely tightly but also be willing to let it go. And, yeah, there were times where, like I got that call and I had to go, or you know that, that crisis moment that I had to deal with counseling, counseling that is unpredictable and through it all, you never pressure, and still do not pressure me to not do ministry, and for that I absolutely am thankful because I'm sure it could be a real challenge with at home. The spouse is like give me, me and mine. And why are you doing all this? For you know that would just be, but there's an understanding there.
Speaker 2:Well, I think for me from the very start. I remember we went to Beavertail that one night when we were dating and we had like a real conversation of like you saying, hey, I want to be in the ministry. This was while we were dating and we had like a real conversation of like you saying, hey, I'm, I want to be in the ministry. This was while we were dating, um, I'm going to be in the ministry. Like this is, this is you know, the calling I feel God is leading me to. And I, after kind of thinking about it for a while, I was like, yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm in. Like this is, this is what I want, this is what I want for my life, this is what I think God wants for me in being in relationship with you.
Speaker 1:Okay, so from that night like 12, probably 12 years ago, maybe even longer, how's it going? How, how's? How has these 12 years since you said, yeah, I'm all in any regrets?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So definitely has had its ups and downs and, quite honestly, there have definitely been times where I would be okay if we were not in the positions that we were in. It's hard. Ministry is hard and it can be hard. I think, again, we've done a really good job at not letting it affect our relationship. But there have definitely been times where I I'm thinking is this worth it? This is hard and people are hard and these situations are hard and this circumstance is really hard, you know, and that's a hard, but then there's also lots and lots and lots of good, and I and we're not called to easy and we're not called to a straight, easy path.
Speaker 1:So knowing what you know now, if you could talk to your younger self 12 years ago, what would you say concerning the ministry and marriage.
Speaker 2:Buckle up, it's going to be a ride. Oh, get you. You better get thick skin. Listen, I love roller coasters. I've loved roller coasters ever since I can remember um this is, this is the the wildest roller coaster I've ever been on um.
Speaker 2:But I I would say that our church has always been, especially since you know, we've been raising young, a young family, and I do feel like our church has been very special in that they've allowed me to not feel overstretched in my ministry. I I feel like there's been a lot of understanding in that she's kind of in the thick of things at home, raising littles and homeschooling, and so I do think our church family has been very gracious in that way and not expecting too much out of me personally in ministry, and that's helped quite a bit. So I'm thankful for that. And also we can say that this is we're talking obviously as like a pastor's family at this point. But ministry is anything and everything, whether you're a Sunday school teacher, whether you're just a helper in a Juana, in all of those capacities. So ministry takes on so many different forms and can affect a relationship at all levels. It's not just as pastor's family, so we're talking specifically in our own experience, but in general I think this could be helpful in any relationship when you're in ministry.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean there needs to be buy-in from husband and wife. There can't be like one party that is like kind of on the fence and then the other person wants to go all in, because That'll cause tension and friction at home. Yeah, and typically and I don't want to seem like I'm overgeneralizing, but I would feel like and you can correct me if I'm wrong but the man wants to go and do all this ministry stuff and the wife is kind of like, hey, you're leaving me at home all alone.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think I can see that being the case. I do know women who are go-getters and extroverts and want to do all the things where their husbands are not that way. And so there is that other side of it too.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think of just when Paul talks to Timothy about. You know, this is the qualifications of a man who's going to lead in the church he has to be able to manage his own household well. Right, going to lead in the church, he has to be able to manage his own household well. So if your marriage, if tension comes into your marriage because of different ideas of ministry involvement, you are getting really close to not meeting a qualification. If you manage your household well, you know you have to be like there needs to be buy-in and kind of like that night at Beavertail we both were signing blank checks.
Speaker 2:Yeah Right, we had no idea.
Speaker 1:Well, I'm a second generation pastor, so I've got to. I witnessed in my, like, teenage years and early 20s, learning through observation, um from my father and then working alongside him throughout the years. But, uh, nonetheless, there is still a level of you're only going to understand it when you experience it. And, um, it wasn't like we were like, hey, let's sign up, for you know, this is, you know, this booming church, and like we've had to plow and most of our stuff. It's in weird ways, it seemed like planting a church in a church.
Speaker 1:All I never have taken over one established ministry. The only ministries I've ever really been doing are the ones that I've been, you know, by God's grace, with a team creating and building. And so I mean, even at the very beginning, we started that Sunday school class because there wasn't one. It wasn't like a Sunday school teacher had retired and didn't have anything. Well, all right, lord, let's walk into this. So, yeah's, definitely I don't like roller coasters. Um, oh, we're at the on that starship 3000 at the fair. I still feel sick when I think about it.
Speaker 2:But yeah, it's been a ride of some ups and downs, great victories and a lot of pain yeah, I think I think on my end too I can think of some women who kind of have come alongside me In the times where I wasn't really able to be physically with you. In ministries like Youth Group, there were women who would come alongside and family who would either take the children or come over and, while you were at Youth Group, come and kind of help me around the house and just have company. And so I always thought that that was really special too, that there were a couple of women who were willing to do that for us as just a support of our family, which was sweet.
Speaker 1:Yeah for sure, and I'm thankful for the godly men in my life that in kind of different areas were able to invest.
Speaker 1:And yeah, you were talking about something earlier.
Speaker 1:That just kind of reminds me I had to draw some hard lines pretty early on and there was kind of a move of a flurry of busyness.
Speaker 1:And one pastor that has been meaningful to me throughout the years that I've listened to, I was listening to him early on and he was talking about how he prioritized his days and he said he would have his mornings were for God, his afternoons were for people and he said he would have his mornings were for God, his afternoons were for people and his evenings were for family when the kids were little.
Speaker 1:And he said what does it profit me to gain the whole church but to lose my family? And that right there really stuck hard and I thought about okay, I could basically leave my children could become orphans, functional orphans or a single parent home, because dad is always taking care of all of these things and I didn't want to miss bedtimes and bath times and letting little Marley do my hair when she's a couple years old. And so I set aside and I told the line and I said I will not be out three nights in a row on reoccurring functional ministries. I'm not going to be out Tuesday night, wednesday night, thursday night in addition to Sunday night.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:Thursday night in addition to Sunday night, and I need to have some family dinners and I need to just be dad to these children and the ministry will be there and I'm not going to neglect or be lazy and I know if something comes up I need to go and, fully supported by Kate, but the regular rhythm I can't do that. So finding out, okay, how can I still get in time with people and Saturday mornings with with men, um, things like that, recognizing that those that are working during the week they can't. So just being strategic and the management of time and prioritizing what is most important, because you will always make time for what's most important to you. And so those were some of the boundaries.
Speaker 1:If there was, like a lot of ministry output, you know in those early years of student ministry, go until nine o'clock at night on a Thursday, I wouldn't be up and at it at six or 7 am on Friday. If I was gone all day Thursday, I would try to spend a little more time in the morning with family and then, you know, go off to the office or something like that. And so just trying to work those things out where I'm being faithful to what I'm called to do, both in my vocation and in my home and the roles that I have there husband, father, and so those are just kind of practical things that you know I've tried to do throughout the years. So we've talked around it. We've talked about different prioritizing time, structuring days, safeguarding some family time In the midst of ministry, which is unconventional in its timing. Um, you know, get the question how many hours a week do you work?
Speaker 2:that it's a really hard question to answer yeah, um because it's every text, every phone call, every question, every meeting, every time putting into sermon prep and all of that. It's hard to timestamp those things.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I know, and especially like it's not even rated on time, it's outcomes and deadlines and oof.
Speaker 2:To just put like a stamp on time of what you do.
Speaker 1:I hit my hours for the week.
Speaker 2:I'm done Right Because you have Joe Schmoe who's like texting you a theological question.
Speaker 1:I don't think Mr Schmoe would appreciate that you should use someone else's name, right?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Sure Sure.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I mean seeking to be accessible but not always Right, Drawing some of those lines and boundaries. What are ways in which you and I have been able to safeguard our marriage, to maintain a healthy marriage, in the midst of, I mean, I mean, the many challenges that we have faced from just the nature of the ministry? What are some things that have been helpful?
Speaker 2:Oh, I think, still having good communication and expectations of what our days or weeks look like, staying on each other's team and not letting something come in between us, knowing that it's from the outside and it's not to put a wedge between the two of us. I don't think there's ever been a situation in ministry that we've come across that has put a wedge between the two of us, I think, knowing that we're doing this as a team. So even if you have to go out and do a meeting, I'm supporting you in that. Really, I think, prioritizing each other.
Speaker 1:And I support your ministry too when you need to. Let's not make it all sound one-sided that Caitlin's just like oh, I'm your cheerleader at home, but there are things that you can do because of who you are, that I can't do. There are people you can talk to that I can't talk to Crossing that gender line. You know it would be, and so oh yeah, and you know.
Speaker 1:You with the ladies and women's ministry stuff and those kinds of things where you can engage with young moms or moms of many and like, what can I do? I can, I can support and say, hey, I'm going to, I got the kids, I'm going to, I'll make dinner tonight and you go out and do that thing that you need to do as well, because I want to support you as you're seeking to love Jesus and love people.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, I mean Sunday mornings are both supporting each other. I have to go to music practice really early and even if those are mornings where you're, you know, finalizing sermon prep or like reviewing your sermon, you know you're still watching all the kids while I'm going out to music practice. So you know what?
Speaker 1:let me bring that up for a second, because there's going to be a time where we're going to look back on the season that we're in right now and we're going to say, wow, and let's remember this podcast and listen back to it in I don't know 15 years. But right now you are the music coordinator for the church. Between the two of us, we organize and write the order of service every week. You lead the music team in preparation and practice for the songs I'm preaching regularly pretty regularly and teaching a Sunday school class prior to that, and you have music practice at 8 o'clock in the morning. So you have to get up, get yourself ready, you make food for everyone there are five children in the house that have to get dressed and you color coordinate them from head to toe so their outfits all match and they look clean okay you're out the door at eight o'clock.
Speaker 1:I need to do my final sermon preps. So I'm studying for the sermon, rallying the troops like 8 50, getting five kids in the car to rush over to church teach a Sunday school class, come upstairs, try to be bubbly and ready to go and if I have service lead, I've got call to worship pastoral prayer. You have to jump on the piano. You got to jump on the piano and then I'm going to go preach a 42-minute sermon. You got to jump on the piano and then I'm going to go preach a 42-minute sermon. So by the time noon hits on Sunday Also getting the kids to Sunday schools and nurseries and children's church. Oh yeah, All that kind of stuff.
Speaker 2:Oh no, we're beat Sunday afternoon. Also. I was just talking to someone recently about what goes into being a pastor and pastor's wife on a Sunday morning. You also kind of have to have like multiple personalities, in that you know you talk to one person with one personality and one conversation and you have to remember details about them and their life and then you have to go and you have to go talk to another person with their personality and their life and their problems and their things and it's it. I mean it's encouraging and it's wonderful and I do love Sundays. There's joy in that. But there is a lot of like mental exertion that also goes into that part of a sunday morning besides music and sermon and sunday school like it's. It is exhausting so by one o'clock.
Speaker 2:The last few weeks we have been like vegging on sunday afternoons because, it is just it can be utterly exhausting, on top of kids and pregnancy and all of those things so I have.
Speaker 1:In my previous life I was a carpenter and built houses, frame to finish, and I had some long days, some very physical days of building and framing, and there are some Sundays that I am far more exhausted from, just like everything, than some of the most intense construction days. And there's a lot going on to just the whole thing. And we show up and all that is seen is, oh, the souls are here, hi how you doing it's like man.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we have definitely. There have been some times that we've talked about, about ministry, about how we would love to just be able to go to church on a Sunday morning, worship and go home.
Speaker 1:Okay, so here is one of the great benefits of marriage and ministry when we get to travel and we get to be nobodies when you show up at a church.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I love that.
Speaker 1:I love being a nobody in church.
Speaker 2:It's refreshing to be able to just go to church and worship and just be in the pew.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and to talk to other fellow believers. It's just when you get asked the question oh, what do you do? Yeah. And I'm like oh, I'm a pastor. Oh, really weird.
Speaker 2:That is really refreshing to be able to do that Because we don't ever. Just I mean it is rare if we are going to church and there is no, we have no hand in the service in any way, but it's always nice when that does kind of happen.
Speaker 1:Enjoy ministry, love it. It is a roller coaster. I wouldn't trade anything, almost anything. No, I wouldn't trade anything Almost anything? No, I wouldn't. There's no greater joy than serving King Jesus. What?
Speaker 2:it boils down to is the why why we do what we do? And having sort of almost like a mission statement of, because there will be times where you will question is this really what we're called to do? Is this what I want to do? Um, and just kind of having a a why statement, um is really helpful.
Speaker 1:yeah, I mean you have to. You have to because that's what's going to sustain you. It's not the people. People, it's not. This is my job. It's that I have been called by Jesus to spend and be spent for his church, to suffer for the sake of the gospel, in whatever location, because people come and people go.
Speaker 1:Ministries change, dnas of churches, cultures change, churches change, and you need something that's far more rock solid than that. I've been betrayed, I've been burned, I've been lied to, I've been slandered. I have been at the wrong end of many people's conversations, misrepresented and treated in very unkind ways by people that call themselves Christians, and that's a challenge. You don't just oh, how many hours a week do you work? Oh, I can turn that off now because it's 5 o'clock. Just, oh, how many hours a week do you work? Oh, I can turn that off now because it's five o'clock.
Speaker 1:But at the same time, for all those negatives, there's been great positives. I've seen lives changed. I've seen people come up and then go into the ministry, I've seen disciples making disciples, and so these things happen If there's not opposition, if you're not facing opposition, I wonder, are you really making a difference? And so, throughout our time, we face those things, but the good far outweighs the negative.
Speaker 1:You do need a why. Why do I do the things that I do? And it has to be more than your own self-determination. But when talking about the ministry and marriage, we must safeguard it. Talk often, share wins and losses, successes and failures. Be open. Men in ministry confide and share not all of this stuff. There are things that you know you don't even your wife doesn't need to know about, and that's you know at the elder level of things at times. But share, find support. I mean, your greatest teammate is your wife, is your spouse, and it needs to stay that way. But also, you know, in seasons where ministry is very demanding, you need to be able to press the pause button.
Speaker 1:You need to be able to breathe, because if not, you're just going to burnout, and burnout will wreck your marriage. So prioritize that too. You're not qualified if you can't manage your household well. So 12 years ago at Beavertail you said I'm all in, We'll talk again in 12 more years.
Speaker 2:As of right now, still going well.
Speaker 1:Keep crushing it, kate. Any other thoughts? Great, I have a meeting.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:Well, there you go. All right, I want to thank you for listening to the Pleasing God podcast. If you have any questions, I would love to hear from you. You could reach out at questions at pleasinggodpodcastorg. And remember 1 Thessalonians 4.3,. This is the will of God, your sanctification.
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