Pleasing God Podcast
Pleasing God Podcast
Counseling Belongs In The Church
The most important conversations in a church rarely happen behind a desk; they start in pews, hallways, and kitchens. We sat down with Pastor Seth to explore how counseling can move from a specialized silo to a normal rhythm of discipleship, where Scripture, the Spirit, and the local church work together to bring hope, clarity, and change. Instead of outsourcing every struggle, we outline a path to recover competent Christian counseling inside the body—biblical, compassionate, and practical.
We dig into why counseling is baked into creation itself, why the fall makes it indispensable, and how the Bible equips us for salvation and sanctification. Seth shares a clear framework for competence: a counselor shaped by God’s Word, dependent on the Counselor-Spirit, and supported by a healthy church. We talk through common tensions—when to keep care in-house, when to refer, and how to navigate intimidating labels without losing pastoral wisdom. Expect concrete examples, from helping marriages on the brink to guiding everyday decisions, all while keeping the gospel central.
You’ll hear how ordinary believers can grow a baseline of skill, why pastors must equip rather than carry every burden, and practical ways to build a culture of “member-to-member” care. We highlight tools and training that actually change lives, starting with our own. If you’ve wondered how to help people suffer well, counsel unbelievers with integrity, or turn Sunday sermons into weekday care, this conversation will give you steps you can use immediately.
If this resonates, follow the show, share it with a leader who cares about people, and leave a review to help others find it. Got questions or stories from your church? Reach out—we’d love to hear them.
Stock Music provided by wolfgangwoehrle, from Pond5
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Hi, and welcome back to the Pleasing God Podcast, a show focused on helping Christians to think biblically, engage practically, and live faithfully for the glory of God. I'm your host, Jonathan Sowell. And on this episode, I had an awesome opportunity to sit down with Pastor Seth Rambicure. And we had a conversation about the need for counseling in the church, really competent Christian counseling, and thinking about practical ways in which the whole congregation is able to counsel one another through God's word. And so I hope as you listen to this episode, it's encouraging to you, helps you to think carefully about counseling, the role as a congregation member, a member of a church, and the role that you play in counseling. Well, Seth, thanks for joining me on the podcast today. It's exciting to be able to sit down with you and talk on this subject of counseling in the church. So uh again, thanks for joining. Want to just kind of give listeners uh just a quick kind of rundown on uh who you are and what you're doing. You're a pastor.
Seth:Mm-hmm. Yeah, well, thanks for having me. Yeah, this is fun. Um, yep, I'm Seth Rambic here. I'm uh one of the pastors at Exeter Chapel, um, which is uh actually a church plant of Quidnesset um back in the eighties. Was it the eighties? Yes, so we have that connection. Yeah, mid mid eighties. Um the the chapel itself um in Exeter was built in uh in you know 1990, 91, something like that.
Jon:So okay.
Seth:Yeah, but I haven't been pastor for that long. I was hired in 2018, so um I grew up there. And uh and yeah. Yep. Uh what else would you like to know?
Jon:I know you're passionate about counseling. And it's something there's we'll talk uh I think a little later on about maybe some of the things that you're working on and some of the projects by way of uh counseling network. But uh yeah, I wanted to just bring you on because I think this is an important subject. Figured, you know, you'd be the guy to you know shed some light on this, talk about it, and just kind of raise awareness of the need and why counseling in the church is important. That's that's really the you know kind of the purpose here. Thinking about this idea of uh competent Christian counseling, right? There, I mean, there's counseling, there's Christian counseling, and then there's competent Christian counseling. Yeah.
Seth:All those words are important.
Jon:Yeah, right. I mean, we could sit and unpack each one of them uh if we wanted to, but uh let's talk just briefly about the need. Do you think and see that there is a need for counseling in the church?
Seth:Yeah, absolutely. I mean, uh anecdotally, I think we could all say, oh, you know, I know someone that has a mental health struggle, if you will. There's a mental health crisis going on. Or, you know, or I know a married couple, you know, at our church that, you know, just can't get along. Um and so I think we probably all, you know, can sort of sense, you know, there's a felt need for counseling. Um people, you know, whether whether they go to the church for it or not, um, people go for counseling a lot these days. Um on the theological side though, I think it's objectively necessary that uh we need counsel. Uh when he was created, Adam needed counsel. Um we don't know who we are without God's revelation. So, you know, God and God's God's counseling Adam in the garden before the fall and uh and telling him who he is and how he's related to Eve and you know, all of those things. Um he's created in God's image to represent and reflect him. Um you know, and we don't we don't have that without without God's counsel, without without revelation. So counseling objectively is a need. And then, you know, after the fall, even much more so.
Jon:Oh yeah, for sure for sure, absolutely. So yeah, as you were saying, like after the fall, of course, like you we see a great need for I mean, there's there's human sinfulness, and as a result of that, there's gonna be a need for counseling. Exactly. And helping to understand. I love that you you know you root counseling in Genesis one, Genesis one and two. Um, because truly, I mean, understanding who we are in light of who God is and his revelation of as he counseled Adam, yeah, I think that's that's so foundational to starting there. I mean, maybe all the answers are in Genesis.
Seth:Yeah. For sure. Uh, but you know, to to go go to the New Testament, you look at Romans 1 and Paul's description of the problem, um, and describing the fall of man, where man rejects the knowledge of God, and uh, and then his his mind, his understanding is darkened. Well, there you have the need for counseling. And so that's a that's a step back from, oh, I know this couple that needs counseling, or this other person, or what no, we all need counsel.
Jon:And we and we and we all don't need counsel just when things are bad either, right? Right. There's there's some preventative care that's done by counseling as well. So I we definitely want to clear the the stigma that like if you're getting counseling, that means there's something completely shipwreck with you. That's not always the case. And I and I mean sometimes it is, and sometimes there's need of crisis counseling. And um but as kind of pastors too, you know, and I think about the need for counseling in the church, I think there's a great need in in that there's a tension between what the church can do and then sometimes what's outsourced by way of counseling. And sometimes I I think one of the issues is either everything gets tried to get taken care of in the church or everything gets outsourced. We'll leave that to the professionals kind of attitude. And I do think there is a place for have a you know, a bit more credentialed and professional in Christian counseling that maybe lay people can't do. Um yeah, I don't know if you want to just talk a little bit about that, maybe in your own experience. Do you see, have you seen where there's been a lot of outsourcing or try to handle a lot of things internally? Yeah. What are your thoughts on that?
Seth:Well, no, I think that's a fact. Um and and uh the the modern movement of of biblical counseling, if you will, you know, started back late 60s, early 70s with with a guy named Jay Adams, you know, and a couple of colleagues who saw that basically the church had abdicated its role on on counseling. Um and so if a if a person is going to receive talk therapy, they don't go to the church to get it. And that sort of started with the whole professionalism movement earlier in the century where where you know if you're gonna do something professionally, well then a profession gets together and there's a board that certifies them, and you know, whether you're a doctor or or you're some kind of technician, now HVAC technicians, right? You you get certified to do that, right? You don't just go and work on your air conditioning, you know. And so that's that's what's you know, quote unquote normal now. And so the world doesn't look at the church as a place where you know you could get professional help. Um, but I think God's word tells a little bit of a different story. And you know, are there medical issues? Absolutely. You know, are are we a body and a soul? Absolutely. And so there's there's things that you need uh that that you need counsel, which you know, which by nature is talking. That's that's that's talk therapy. Um but then there's there's things where you might need medicine, and then it's it's drawing that line. There a lot there's a lot of different opinions on where that line is exactly, right?
Jon:And it's it's not so black and white once you get there. Right. Um because the church is a to be a place of of hope, of healing, of restoration. I mean, we we have the greatest story that changes lives, like we've seen it so many times with the gospel that and the transforming power of the Holy Spirit in the life of a believer. And so, yeah, we think like we've got that, but then we need a little bit more and a little bit more of this and that. And I think at times we just need to, I don't want to oversimplify, but there's a centrality of the gospel in the life of the believer that makes a difference. Sure. But marriage on the rocks, difficulty, you know, adjusting to transitions in life. There are many places where we can lean into the church uh and find help there through counsel.
Seth:Yeah, absolutely.
Jon:And so maybe there's a counseling gap in the church, and so one of the things we want to do is kind of a recovery of churches as centers for counsel, right?
Seth:Yeah, hey, look, the the church is actually the logical place. And we get intimidated by the terms out there. Oh, I'm I'm dealing with a you know, my husband's a narcissist. It's like, well, oh boy, I'm not sure I know how to handle that, you know. It's just me and my you know, little Bible over here. Or uh all these other labels that people kind of get stuck with. But I I think on on further thought, the church is the logical place. In in early in the book of Romans, Paul says about the Jews that they were entrusted with the oracles of God. And that's that's what the that's what the church is. Paul says when he spends time with you know the Ephesian church, he's like, I I did not shrink from declaring to you the the what the whole council of God. That's right. And so, yeah, man, we we've got something unique. Well, what does normal actually look like? We're the only ones that know that. Right. Because we have a fixed point of reference. That's that's God, that's the image of God, and then it's the image of God made flesh, it's the Lord Jesus Christ. That's right. That's what normal human being looks like. And so the church is actually the logical place.
Jon:And therefore, I think by conclusion, then uh every pastor is a counselor. Amen. I guess the question is a good one or not. Um and that's where we kind of throw in the word competent, right? So um, but the pastor certainly counsels through the declaring the word, meeting with people, shepherding, caring. And so it's very important to know how to do that well, uh, at least adequately.
Seth:Amen. No, hey, that's you know, Paul in Acts uh chapter twenty is talking to the Ephesian elders about his ministry there, and he says, uh in public and from house to house. So there's this public proclamation of the word, you know, you do it from the pulpit every Sunday, and um, and then there's also this uh this one-to-one discipleship that's going on um in smaller groups in a home. Uh maybe you're meeting with a person for coffee, and yeah, you gotta be able to bring God's word to bear on the the day-to-day life issues.
Jon:Do you think the ability to counsel well is a gift?
Seth:Interesting question. I think that the whole church is called to do it. Um, but there might be there might be uh some that have a more particular gift. Sure. You know, uh it's because counseling is teaching, and it's you know, and so and there's a there's a teaching gift, you know, that the the Bible is directive. So there are other there are forms of secular counseling that aren't directive. Like I'm just gonna put my listening ears on, okay, you know, I'm gonna zip my lips, and I'm gonna say, what is it that you want? What do you want out of life? And and how are you working against yourself? And I'm gonna ask you those kinds of questions, just let you drive. Well, the Bible's not that way. The Bible tells us. Um so yeah, so so you know, Christian counseling is gonna be directive because it's gonna be out of scripture. That's right. And uh, and so yeah, there's there's gotta be a some giftedness there. But in uh in Hebrews 5, the author of Hebrews, whoever that might be, he's he says, uh you guys should all be teachers by now. Now he's kind of talking to all believers. I don't think he's talking in the giftedness sense of teaching, like there's a teaching gift in the New Testament that's clear, but but he's just talking, you guys should be well versed enough in the word to be able to help one another.
Jon:So maybe we it's safe to say like there's a there's kind of a more or less like a minimum standard of the ability to counsel from the in the church as you're discipled and growing. But then there are those that might be um a bit more effective or in in the way that they're able to to connect, uh apply God's word to to someone else. So not all people are necessarily equal on the playing field here, but there is, like you said, the whole church is called to counsel. I think about it like when Paul tells Timothy to do the work of an evangelist. He's not saying go find an evangelist. They were kind of around, I think, during that time as they were fading off as a supernatural office. But you you just kind of see that Timothy is to take up that that role of proclaiming the gospel, sharing the gospel, defending truth. Uh we see that you know kind of being worked out, I think, in the church where you see, well, it's it's important that all the members, in a sense, be able to share God's word, talk with people, help them. Yeah, the church helping each other, while there might be, you know, a set few that are above and beyond.
Seth:Yep. Yes. They're going to do that as their main ministry, if you will. But all the all the saints should be you look at a verse like Colossians 3 16, where let the word of Christ dwell in you richly. And he's talking to all believers as you teach and admonish one another. Uh, that word admonish could be translated counsel.
Speaker 2:Mm-hmm.
Seth:You know, so you've so there you've got a command to all believers to kind of be doing this. You know, is everybody going to be doing it formally as a ministry? No, I don't think so. Um, but yeah, like you said, there should be a a baseline where, yeah, all all members are have that as a goal. Is that I should be I should be using God's word as I talk to, you know, my friend who calls me and and tells me all her woes.
Jon:Yeah, yeah, that's right. Uh and when you have a church that's doing that, that's like a pastor's dream as well, dude. You know, like uh you know, equipping the saints for the work of the ministry. So so therefore, there's probably a a level where you have either the pastor or some that are trained so that they are instructing and equipping with you know practical tools, ways in which uh the members are able to counsel.
Seth:Yep. Yep, exactly.
Jon:So let's talk a little bit, and we we've been kind of hovering around it, but just the theological foundations for biblical counseling. You know, we're told of God that He is in Isaiah, Isaiah 6, we're referring to the the child that was is to be born, he's a wonderful, wonderful counselor. And so even they're just rooted in this is who God is.
Seth:Yeah, amen.
Jon:And as we are to reflect God's image, uh we too have been given the capacity. I mean, I don't see deers counseling each other. Animals don't counsel each other. This is strictly human.
Seth:Yeah.
Jon:And so one of the just the theological foundations is we are reflecting the image of God when we give counsel.
Seth:Yeah, and what you know what, everybody's a counselor too. Just a matter of whether you give like you said, all pastors are counsel. Well, hey, everybody's a counselor, you know. Did your friend call you this week and and tell you about what their husband did or you know, or what their wife did, you know, and then what did you say to them? You know. Um it's just a matter of whether you're a good counselor or not. Sure. And yeah, and we and we have, like you said, we have the whole counsel of God. Um, our God is a communicating God, and we're told that this this word of God, you know, foundational verse like 2 Timothy 3, you know, um 14 to 17, there, where Paul's talking to Timothy about the word of God. You know, your grandmother and your mother brought you up in it, and so you're familiar with the sacred writings, and he's just talking about the Old Testament at this point. And he says it's able to make you wise unto salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. And so, okay, number one great work of God's word there is that it actually restores the soul, as as as Psalm 19 says. It it it is able to make you wise unto salvation. So salvation, great, great work of God's word. Um, and then he goes on to say to Timothy, and it's also able to equip you for every good work. So everything that you were meant to be and you're not, salvation. Um, God's word. And then everything that God's called you to do, and so the man of God may be thoroughly equipped, ready for every good work, maybe mature, complete, you know, is the is the word there. Um everything that God's called you to do, God's word, you know, yeah, is is is there for that. So so you might say sanctification, salvation, sanctification, two great works of God's word. It's it's it's sufficient for that.
Jon:I think about Romans 15 4, where Paul talks about you know, whatever was written in the former days was written for our instruction through endurance and through hope, we we would or through the scriptures we would have endurance and then hope. Uh I might have misquoted that a little bit, but it's close enough. Um he's talking about the the word at work in us that produces godliness manifested out you know through our lives and um how the word works. It doesn't even need to be stated, but when we think of our textbook for counseling, our our foundational book, where are you going?
Seth:Yeah, you're going to the Bible, right?
Jon:That's right, amen. We're we're rooting uh our counsel in God's word, and we're sitting under it. We don't sit above it. You know, we we we submit ourselves to the authority of the word and trust that the word works as the spirit applies truth to the believer. Now, just uh uh uh what about counseling an unbeliever?
Seth:Yeah, great question. A thought just kind of came to my mind. I could see you kind of getting there because the these things are these truths are spiritually discerned, as Paul says it, you know, in first Corinthians. So yeah, what do you do there? Uh my goodness, you evangelize them. All this trouble out there in the world, it's meant to what what does the Bible tell us? It's meant to, it's meant to uh draw us to God. Um uh you know, you you sense your need. Well, what a great opportunity now for me to share the gospel with you. And not in a way that's that skips over or trivializes or pushes aside your problems, but actually in a you know, is there a way that I can share the gospel that that uh addresses actually, you know what your deeper need is? That's right, you know, and and when you know, and and I may or may not be able to solve all of whatever that problem of life is for you. Maybe you've got cancer, you know. Right. I I I can't fix that. But you know, can can you come to know God and and do what pleases him and find the peace and joy that comes from having his spirit abide in you even through all of life's trials, you know, can we get you to that place? Yeah. Wow, amazing.
Jon:Yeah. We cannot take suffering away. It's uh that's inevitable. Uh and we're not even trying to ease necessarily suffering. I mean, we we would love to. And if by God's grace, you know, whatever, if it's a physical thing. But part of I think biblical Christian counseling is that we're able to help people suffer well. And because I need that word in my own life too. And this is where uh it's important to be on the giving and receiving end. It's uh counseling is is very reciprocal. Um, I think it should be at least, um, hearing from others as we give to others uh the life-giving truth of God's word. Yeah, counseling an unbeliever uh ultimately is an opportunity. Yeah. It's an opportunity to sit down, especially if they want it. Someone wants to sit down with me and it's like, hey, I've got all these problems. You know, I'll address your your felt need, but I'm I'm just gonna connect and redirect to Jesus. But I want to do that in a way that they're they're a person, not a project. Yeah. You know, I'm not sure, I'm not just trying to be this like I do care about your problem, but oftentimes in that situation, your perceived problem is not your real deep down problem. Sure. It's a symptom. Yeah, it's a some it's a symptom of you know needing to be renewed and um to come to know Christ. So we did throw out this word competence. And and I like that word because I think it gives us a category, something we can aspire to in biblical counseling, in helping people to follow God, follow Jesus, uh obey and apply the principles. But what does competence look like, say in a counseling setting?
Seth:Yeah, one word, Jesus. That's great. You know, he he never he never didn't know what to say, if you don't mind all the negatives in that sentence. But uh I'm yeah, our God is the wonderful counsel. We certainly don't want to be poor counselors, um, and so competence is a good goal. And I think where that word specifically comes from, um Jay Adams liked to use that word. In fact, he wrote he wrote a book called Competent to Counsel early on. Um and and he he kind of picked that word up from Romans 15, 14, where he's he's talking to the Roman believers and he says he says that he's confident that they're able to instruct, I think is the way the ESV translates it. Um but it might also be translated competent to counsel. Some of these believers in Rome he hasn't met yet, right?
Speaker 2:Mm-hmm.
Seth:And well, I think it's because he's he's assured of their resources, uh, their resources in God's word and and in the Holy Spirit who dwells within them, um, and in the church that God's put them in. I think those are the three great resources of of the biblical counselor is God's word, mm-hmm and the s the the spirit, the counselor who dwells within them, and the church uh that that he that he puts them in. So that's kind of that's kind of where that concept comes from, if you will. You know, I you you think of a verse like uh like like uh Ephesians uh 14, where Paul says, we don't want you to be driven about by every wind of human doctrine, you know. Uh that's what not competent looks like you know. But the the next verse in Ephesians 4, he says, we want you to be uh grown up into Christ, mature in Christ. Um so like I said, in a word, Jesus. It looks like Jesus. Okay, so how so we're all we're all as we minister that speaking the truth in love to one another, you know, Ephesians 4. As we minister to one another, we're growing up into Christ, we're becoming uh we're becoming more competent there, um, increasing in the knowledge of God.
Jon:I think what Paul says in Colossians 1, you know, him we proclaim, admonishing and warning everybody with all wisdom that we might present you mature in Christ. And it's like this is the goal of the minister, the goal of our lives.
Seth:Yeah, beautiful picture of counseling there.
Jon:Yeah. So, but nobody like maybe someone's listening and thinking, you know, I kind of have a heart towards counseling, a desire towards it. How can I increase my competency? Because you know, nobody I I would say starts out like up top, but you have to you have to grow. I know you know, I've had counseling sessions where I've come out of it where I was giving the counsel and I thought, man, that was a disaster. Uh I tried and I fumbled. I remember studying um That's never happened to me, by the way. Oh, good for you. Studying Christian counseling for my undergrad and um just applying all these different things. And you know, I took this course on issues in you know, sexuality, this marriage in family, child counseling, and uh then starting to apply some of those things, and I was like, well, this is a little more challenging, it can be at times. Absolutely. Uh so if someone's listening and said, Hey, no, I have a desire to to help people follow Jesus better, grow in their sanctification, just be a an ear and a source of counsel for them. Where would you point them to? Yeah. How do you get started in and growing? I mean, certainly be faithful to the local church, commit commit to being in God's word, some of those basic things. Amen. Um, but any any other direction that you might want to send someone?
Seth:Yeah, for sure. And you know what? Don't look don't overlook those things. Like, my goodness, if if you've never read through the whole Bible before, you know, do it in a year. Pick up one of those one year plans and do it in a in a year. And you know what? Do that a couple years in a row, and you'll find like, whoa, I have a better grasp of scripture at this point. You know, that thing that's that's going on in my own life, or that thing that's going on in so-and-so's life, uh, you know what, I have a better idea of what to because if you open God's word every day and you and you f you work on proceeding through the whole counsel of God, and you ask God, you know, like like the the author of Psalm 119 says, Open my eyes that I might behold wonderful things in your law, if you're doing that on a daily basis, well that's a prayer God delights to answer. And that's right. Yeah, and you and you're going to become more competent.
Jon:So so we say foundationally saturate yourself in scripture. Yeah, man. Yep. Being in the word regularly, um, it very much is like eating. It I can't tell you what I had for dinner four weeks ago, but I know that I ate. Yeah. And so in in many ways, this it the constant practice of Bible intake is is food for the soul. To be daily in the word is to prevent from becoming malnourished. Yeah. And it's a great practice. And it's not a legalistic thing, it's a good thing.
Seth:And I think the more the more you do that, um and then you look at issues of day-to-day life in the light of what you read that morning, uh, the the more competent you're going to become because it it you know there's all kinds of, you know, marriage and divorce, abortion, you know, um all these issues that are, you know, th that are on the public scene and just just daily in the news or daily in our lives. Um they they're going to come up. And you know, the apostle Paul says, find out what what pleases the Lord. So that's that's you devote yourself in that way, uh, to looking in the scripture and then looking at life, and then looking back at the scripture and then looking at life. Find out what pleases the Lord. The author of Hebrews says uh uh solid food is for the mature. That's right. Those who have their powers of discernment trained by constant practice to discern good from evil. So, like, you're not gonna snap your fingers and get there. Right. This is a day-to-day thing where you're keep looking into the word and then go talk to somebody about it, you know, and and do that on a regular basis. Practice, practice counseling.
Jon:Is there is there a situation uh or scenario that you can envision where someone comes to you, they're they're hungry to counsel, they're in God's word, and you would say, Hey, let me recommend this training for you, or um, you know, so-and-so does this well, or besides the Bible, here's a I mean you've mentioned Jay Adams, um here's a go-to resource just to kind of help as a uh as a complement to these things. And yeah, if someone's looking for you, you know, Pastor Seth, where can I go to get better at this? Where would you send them?
Seth:Yeah, no, absolutely. And I know I dodged your question, but I, you know, if this is biblical counseling, we we've got to talk about being in the word. But uh, but yeah, there are some great resources. Um uh one one book I would recommend um is is uh Instruments in the Redeemer's Hand uh by Paul Tripp. And uh that's a great read. You know, Paul Tripp's a great author, he's he's easy to read, but uh just uh a solid picture um of what it looks like to grow and change in the Christian life. And hey, let me tell you just personal testimony, the person who has been impacted the most by my biblical counseling training is me. Yeah. And and and maybe the the person who's gotten the most fruit from it, you know, besides that, besides me, is my wife, you know.
Jon:Listen, I can I can riff on this um for a while. I won't, but I remember as I was studying uh in my biblical Christian counseling, uh th those various courses on uh child counseling and and marriage marriage and family therapy. I think that was the name. Um and I I s I'd been married for three years when I was taking these courses. I remember I'd I'd be working on my courses, and then I'd say, hey, you know, I'm gonna go uh I'm gonna go try this on my daughter, or just like try to connect with her on these things, and like I'd see like the the application of it. But most importantly, when I was taking my marriage courses.
Seth:Oh, here's what I'm doing wrong.
Jon:I actually said, Kate, do you want to watch these videos with me? Yeah. And so we started watching these videos together, and it was, yeah, it was very much like we looked at each other and we were like, we're sorry, like we repent. Let's, and it was so eye-opening. But yeah, the person who benefited the most from studying counseling is me. Yeah. And it and it set my marriage in a great trajectory. Uh to this day, we still look back and reference, you know, when we were watching those videos and the things that we learned. And when we do premarital counseling now, much of that is talked about and and shared with you know newlyweds and things of that nature, which is a it's just a blessing to be able to do. Um, so just a closing thought here. How does, again, we'd say competent biblical counseling, how does that affect the life of the church? How does that affect the life of the pastor? What does by by being trained, by thinking about this subject, how does that help foster a healthy church?
Seth:Well, you cited earlier, you know, that picture from Ephesians 4 where the uh the the pastors and teachers are given to the church to do the ministry, right? They're the ministers. Okay, that's not what it says. That's not what it says. Yeah. It's to equip the saints for the work of the ministry. And so, you know, and I'm sure you've had this experience where it's you know, so and so comes up from your congregation and they're like, Pastor, I just gotta bend your ear for a minute, you know, about so and so. I'm really concerned uh for them and they've got this going on in your life. So I think you should really go visit them. And don't you just want to turn that person around and be like, it, that's so funny, they came to you, you know, and sort of buried me to need kind of thing, right? That's right, yeah. And they they you know, they sort of buried their heart. You know, you know, what what one pastor uh Brad Bigney uh says to his congregation is wouldn't you like to help a real person with a real problem using your Bible? And man, that's a picture of a healthy church right there.
Jon:When we stop looking at the pastor as the quarterback who's to like lead everybody down the field, and we start to see that we see the pastor a little bit more in the role of like, for lack of a better term, the coach who is who is helping and getting the players, the church on the field to execute the thing that's needed, right? And so uh instead of everyone just having to look over to him to yes, he's the leader, yes, he's with his staff, his team of elders. Yeah, but I can only do so much.
Seth:You know, how many people could I actually meet? Could I meet with everybody in the church, you know, in a given week and bigger churches?
Jon:They have their dedicated counseling pastor. But like there's there's not enough capacity for that. And so for us to really equip the saints for the work of the ministry that we uh uh are called to do, that's almost reproducing counselors. Yeah, amen. And and we do that through various means teaching, training, um, preaching. When the members are when it's member on member care, we're functioning much more like a New Testament church.
Seth:Yeah, that's the the you know, the first Corinthians 12 picture. The the body, you know, each each body part has a function, and it's and if it's if it's not functioning, well then you're deficient in some way. So yeah, and you know, and uh that's a that's a long slow work. That's one of the reasons why I uh I got together with these other churches and said, Hey, let's put on these trainings and let's invite all our members to it, you know. Yeah, that's great. Uh and you know, and then you you you're just regularly, all right. I'm gonna meet with I I could probably meet with three or so people a week um and and still have my wits about me. Sure. And and be able to disciple them and remember what it was that we talked about last week. But I'm gonna do that on a regular basis and see if I can't reproduce disciplers. Um we're making we're making disciples. We should also be making disciplers. And uh yeah, it's it's a long slow work, but I think that's that's the way to a healthy church. Yeah, it's worthwhile.
Jon:Yeah, that's that's fantastic. Yeah. Uh any other thoughts just on counseling? I mean, we've kind of just flew around, talked about a few things, just trying to raise awareness to why maybe we shouldn't just be so quick to outsource counseling, but to look within our churches, to look at the members in our churches, to really help us grow in God's word and apply God's truth. But do you have any other kind of closing thoughts, maybe?
Seth:Yeah, do it. Do it. I like I said earlier, I think we're intimidated, and uh, you know, you oh you might do more harm than good. Um and hey, that's certainly that has happened. That has happened.
Jon:I I know that that's happened.
Seth:But you know what? Pray. Uh seek the seek the Lord's help and and and minister his word to one another.
Jon:Make sure you care about the person you're counseling. Sure. That's a that's a good word. Like you can, in an insensitive way, bring God's word on a hurting person and do damage. Sure. And so I think it's really important as we counsel to make sure that our hearts are compassionate and caring uh for those individuals that are struggling and that do need to be kind of redirected and pointed in the way in which they should go.
Seth:Yeah. Uh but I don't want people to be discouraged or intimidated from it. That's good. You know, you you you practice, that's how you get better. And uh and yeah, with with a heart for the Lord and a heart for people, like you said, care about the person, uh, then the Lord will will care for the results. That's great.
Jon:So hey, thanks for the conversation.
Seth:Yeah, my pleasure.
Jon:Yeah, this is great. I want to thank you for listening to the Pleasing God Podcast. If you have any questions, I'd love to hear from you. You could reach out at questions at pleasing Godpodcast.org. And remember first Thessalonians 4 3. This is the will of God for sanctification.
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