Pleasing God Podcast
Pleasing God Podcast
Why Theology Matters for the Local Church
What if better theology could actually make your church kinder, calmer, and more unified? We sit down with Dr. Matthew Haste of Southern Seminary to explore how loving God with our minds translates into healthier congregations, steadier leaders, and clearer discipleship. From the joy of “light bulb” moments to the hard work of guarding against drift, we unpack why training pastors isn’t elitist—it’s practical care for the people they serve.
We start with the case for continuing education in ministry and why professional doctorates help pastors sharpen real-world skills. Dr. Haste shares his own journey—from a reluctant college student who stood up to encourage a peer with Scripture, to a professor forming “expert practitioners” who bring biblical clarity back home. Along the way, we look at how knowledge and love belong together: Paul prays for love to abound with knowledge and discernment, because robust affection needs true understanding to guide it.
Then we put tools in your hands. Theological triage helps us hold first order truths like the Trinity and the gospel with firm conviction, recognize second order doctrines like baptism that organize local churches, and keep third order debates charitable. Practical triage—command, wisdom, conscience, preference—gives language for everyday tensions. Many conflicts cool when we stop promoting preferences to commands or forcing personal convictions on everyone. This framework doesn’t water down faith; it strengthens unity and mission by giving each issue its proper weight.
If you care about sound doctrine, wise shepherding, and a church that grows in grace and knowledge, you’ll find clear categories and hopeful steps here. Want more conversations like this? Follow the show, share it with a friend who loves the church, and leave a review telling us which triage category helped you most.
Stock Music provided by wolfgangwoehrle, from Pond5
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Hi, and welcome back to the Pleasing God Podcast, a show focused on helping Christians to think biblically, engage practically, and live faithfully for the glory of God. I'm your host, Jonathan Sowell. And on this episode, I had an awesome time to be able to sit down with a friend, my former doctoral supervisor, uh Dr. Matthew Haste. He's a professor at Southern Seminary, and we just got a great time talking about theology and the church and why it matters, why theological training is important for leaders and for the whole congregation, and how the church can benefit from formal theological education. So I hope as you listen to this, you're encouraged. It helps you to think carefully about theology, how that is applied in the church, and if you're just thinking about, you know, what can I do to grow as a theologian? Hopefully, this episode can provide some practical insight and wisdom into that. I hope you're blessed by listening to it. Well, Matt, Dr. Haste or whatever I should call you, is Matt okay for this? Um Thanks for joining. Thanks for coming on the podcast. Glad to be here. And uh just want to talk about something that I think we're both really passionate about, and that's uh theological education and uh in the local church and why the church still needs kind of pastor theologians for for today. I know this is a lot, it has a lot to do with what you do at your your work down at Southern Seminary, and um you are uh the how would you say the lead of the doctor of ministry program?
Matt:Yeah, the director of professional doctoral studies.
Jon:Okay, the director of professional doctoral studies. Uh, you want to just talk a little bit about what that is and what that entails?
Matt:Yeah, so I have the privilege of serving on the faculty at Southern Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky. I've been there about seven years, and I I teach in areas of biblical spirituality, biblical counseling, classes kind of focus on practical theology as it relates to pastoral ministry. And then I oversee the Doctor of Ministry and Doctor of Educational Ministry degrees, which is what we call professional doctoral degrees. And so what that practically means is those are advanced degrees designed to uh aid people who are in ministry and want to grow in knowledge and effectiveness at what they're already doing. So we're we're trying to train expert practitioners in the field of of ministry, uh, pastoral ministry, missions, Christian education, that kind of thing.
Jon:Yeah, and and let me say from experience that it's a really good program. Yeah. And I was blessed to go through it and to get to know you through that program as you were uh my supervisor.
Matt:Yeah.
Jon:And you're one of our star alumni. Hey. We're grateful for you. I'm thankful. And uh I can even say my church is thankful for affording me the opportunity to go through it and to learn. And I think of all of my education, whether I mean I went to Bible college, then I went to seminary, did my MDiv, and I just couldn't get enough. And so I was just you know, go on to the next. But of all three tracks, I would say the D-Men program was the most beneficial and practical, especially sitting in cohorts with with other uh brothers in ministry, you know, and getting to learn from them and and also the professors uh and being trained to to to go back into the church and apply the things that I'm learning. And so uh just a wonderful opportunity. And you know, if anyone's listening and they're thinking, should I should I continue past my MDiv? Absolutely. Uh it's well worth it. And the training, it's it's valuable for life. So I want to talk a little bit about that, why the church still needs theologically trained leaders, pastors, leaders. And when we think about the church today, oftentimes we we can you know maybe lament the larger church. I don't really want to do that, but when we think about local churches, there is a need for training, there's a need for continual training. And I think through your years of experience, you've probably seen that as well. Um, do you want to talk a little bit about that?
Matt:Yeah, I'll I'll maybe just start by connecting that immediately to the work we do with the D-Men program because uh I appreciate everything you said there. I mean, what what you described is is in many ways what we hope all of our graduates would be able to say is that this this both strengthened me as a leader, as a pastor, as uh a minister, and it blessed my church. You know, it it was a blessing to my church for me to to grow in these ways, to, to study deeply and to continue my training for the sake of the people whom I'm shepherding. And uh when I started uh leading in this program, one of the things that kind of struck me was uh as it relates to Christian ministry, we we don't have a uh sort of a formal process of continuing education as we do in many other fields. So if you just think about your uh your school teachers in your congregation, most of them uh get a bachelor's degree and then they get a master's degree, and then uh every year, every semester perhaps they're required to do professional development and things like that. And we can think about any number of other vocations that have a similar track where you don't complete a degree program and then enter the workforce, presuming that you have learned everything you need in those three or four years for 40 or 50 years of faithfulness. And and yet in Christian ministry, uh often uh it is the case that uh, you know, if we think of pastors, a a brother goes to college, he goes to seminary, and then he goes to pastor. And and it's a lifetime of trying to draw on that, uh draw deeply from that well. And um, you know, not not everyone has the opportunity to do additional degrees, but I think part of what we're doing in the D-Men is we're just trying to uh strengthen pastors in the work they're doing and and give them opportunities to sharpen the tools and uh explore new areas and and even kind of refresh their own training because you know the longer you're in ministry, the the more you're encountering uh a world that's different than the world you were trained in. Oh yeah, for sure. That that means uh you you benefit greatly from kind of going back to the classroom and and studying deeply.
Jon:And so I know that uh the track that I went was uh Dr. Ministry in Applied Theology. And the moment I saw that, I was like, yes, that's what I want to do. Um I'm a very uh practical-minded person. And I always thought or keep thinking, how do I connect theology with life in the local church? Why does theology matter for the church? Because it does. Theology matters because uh, I mean, it's it's the basis by which we do everything. And uh reminded of you know, the way R.C. Sproul's book, where everyone's a theologian, and and the and the question that's asked is, are you a good one or not? Right. We all, by virtue of calling ourselves Christians, make a theological claim. We know God. That's inherently theological. And so um kind of want to just maybe talk a little bit about why theology matters, generally speaking, and then how do we apply that to the church? Every Christian is a theologian, but we want to know do we do that well or not? Where do we where do we get that from? And maybe even talk a little bit about your um your history or your kind of coming up as a theologian, right? Because you would certainly, I mean, if you teach theology, you are a theologian. And so what was your development theologically just through through the church, through the seminary, and how did those kind of cross paths together?
Matt:Yeah, yeah. I mean, I I would say just in general terms, it's been a journey of learning to love God with my mind. Yeah, I mean, that's where I would want to locate it for kind of every Christian who's listening, is just you know, may maybe you're not called to pastoral ministry, maybe you're not called to teach in a seminary, but if if you're following Jesus, you're called to love God with all your mind, in addition to all your soul and your body. And so theology at its at its very most basic level is is learning to think and speak rightly about God and and learning to order your life in accordance to his word, to to live in active obedience to him. And and all of that we could just summarize is is saying loving God, but it but it does begin in the mind. It beg it begins with with understanding who God is, what he's revealed in his word, and and being able to speak rightly about that. So I think for me, my uh personal journey, I I grew up in a family that attended church um somewhat casually, but uh enough that I heard the gospel and uh came to to faith at um uh about age 12 and began to to walk with the Lord uh slowly and with some stumbles in high school, but uh he was gracious, he was kind and and he preserved me in those years.
Jon:When did you know that I've been called to to be a theologian or I've been called to be uh uh a teacher of God's word?
Matt:Yeah, yeah. Actually, it was a pivotal moment for me because so my my high school time was just really I would I would describe it as just trying to kind of hang on to my faith. Like I just I'm just trying not to completely lose this in some sense. And and e even that thought was I I think shaped by some poor theology in the church that was I was in at the time. Um some of your listeners will kind of catch what I just said there and understand exactly what I meant. Yes. Um, because I uh I that was really how I thought of it at the time was I've I've got to live a certain kind of life lest I lose this uh grace that's been given to me. And and then when I got to college, I I think I got into a healthier church, I got into uh around people that were uh really teaching me the Bible. I began to read the Bible on my own, and that began to to shape me in a number of ways. But if you would have asked me freshman year of college, are you are you gonna grow up and and be a pastor or seminary professor? I mean, I would have that was the furthest thing from my mind. Um I I wasn't thinking about that at all. But um the the short version of the story is I was I was at a a retreat with a a group of college students from um my my college. I went to Western Kentucky University, so this is like a campus ministry retreat.
Jon:What's the mascot at Western Kentucky? The Hilltoppers.
Matt:Okay, yeah, that big terrifying red blob. Yep. Uh so uh big red um strikes fear in the heart of every child.
Jon:I'm a liberty I I graduated Liberty for undergrad, the flames, like whatever.
Matt:Uh big big red's at least uh a crowd favorite. Everybody loves big red. Nobody hates big red. Yeah, that's right. So a hard guy to hate. Yeah, that's for sure. And we're the hilltoppers. If you go to campus, you'll you'll see why. It's on top of a hill. So it makes some sense.
Jon:There's no mountains in Kentucky.
Matt:Yeah, that's right. Uh so we were on a uh a fall retreat, a group of college students from a campus ministry at Western Kentucky University. And basically, they had this time where everyone was going to share some different things that the Lord was doing in their life. And then and this girl stood up and and she began crying and she began to uh confess sin and and talk about how she'd been living in despair and and just how how difficult life had been. And and and and then she sat down and and no one said anything. And I remember in my in my head just thinking, somebody's gotta respond to her. Someone, someone needs to encourage her.
Jon:Yeah.
Matt:And I just felt a sense of uh uh just direction from the Lord of why don't you? You know, and and before I really thought about what I was doing, I I stood up, I opened up my Bible to uh literally what I'd read that morning. Yep. And I just said, can I can I just share with you what I read this morning? And I John, I was not, I I was a very shy person. This is this was not something I was comfort zone. Yeah, this was not like in my personality. I mean, genuinely, this was of the Lord.
Jon:Yeah.
Matt:Uh I I had zero desire to do that. If I would have thought about it, I probably wouldn't have done it. Exactly. I just stood up and uh opened my Bible and um I just said, Can I can I just encourage you with something I read this morning and and uh read whatever I read? Yep. I said whatever came to my mind to say. I hope it was true. I hope it was helpful. Uh but when I sat back down, I had this thought in my head, that's what I want to do with the rest of my life.
Jon:That felt really good. Yeah, yeah, but but like not just like that. I feel good, but yeah, yeah, I I can understand that. Yeah, I I know exactly what you're talking about.
Matt:Yeah, and it it wasn't it wasn't in that moment, okay. Now I now I'm gonna be a pastor, I'm gonna be a professor. You know, it wasn't there was not that kind of clarity, but just that sense of I want to open God's words, I want to shepherd his people, I want to, I want to proclaim his truth to help his church, I knew in that moment this is this is everything I want to do.
Jon:I tell um, I've said it often to people in my church, I I didn't go to seminary to be a pastor. I went to seminary because I just fell in love with the Bible and uh loving God with your mind. And I just couldn't get enough of it. You know, if you asked me years ago, you know, are you are you gonna be a pastor? I don't know. But wherever I I just want to go where I can help people follow Jesus and learn the scriptures. And one of the greatest joys that I have, and I know that you you can say the same thing, is when you start to see these like light bulbs, you know, just that they they turn on for people and they start making biblical theological connections. I never saw that, or like I understand my Bible better, or I'm I'm walking more faithfully to to with Jesus and helping others. Like I live for that. I I don't, you know, oh great message, good sermon. I don't need that. But someone comes up and said, I understand that better. Thank you. It's like serving them up God's word and get out of the way, right? Yeah. And so that that feeling of like I helped someone, God the Lord used me to help someone, whether go through a struggle or to be encouraged, that's so rewarding. And a lot of that's those are the treasures of heaven, right? Absolutely. But that's what keeps us motivated. I think that's what you know is certainly uh uh something that um gets me out of bed. You know, to be absolutely that's that's uh oh, I love that story. That's that's awesome. Also, when you think about theology and and and and why it matters, it certainly serves as guardrails with us too, and especially in the church, because it can help to I mean, good theology helps us, you know, from from drifting, you know, wondering, am I gonna just hold on to my faith, right? I mean, as we're as we're rooted and we're grounded in truths, um, we become more uh stable. And then as we're stabilized, we can help others to grow and be a bit more uh stabilized too. So obviously you and I are are you know cut from the same cloth in the in the way that um we think theology really, really matters. And there are some that you know kind of can be skeptical of oh, you know, big theology books, you know, the the you know, you've heard the difference between you know, 18 inches between head and heart. It has to go through my head before it gets to my heart, right? Yeah, and and and I understand that, uh, but we should not be afraid of um an intellectual faith um and you know, reading and diving deeper and and and seeking because theology isn't just about what we know, but it informs how we live. And we we won't live what we don't know. And so I think it's very important that we make the connections you know from head to heart and that theology uh for the church matters. And for everyone that's listening, you want a trained uh you know, pastor theologian because he can well he can only serve you what he has, right? You can't feed people from an empty plate. And so it's very important that we should look for trained and respect and and esteem those that have been trained, again, but that that are making the connections to from from head to heart to the people. And I think it's it's it's very valuable. The outcome of theology isn't all the knowledge that I have, but it's the heart that loves Jesus and loves people, right? And so you I love how you started with you know, theology is loving God with your mind. Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength. And theology is your mind, but but it informs the rest of our being, right? Yeah.
Matt:Um and it and it even encourages us in the lives we live and increase in our affections to God. I mean, I think you know, to the person who who's maybe concerned about theology or cautious about theology, um, I I would just encourage them with a a few things. I mean, for one, uh we have a God who's revealed himself in Word, right? And so uh God has not chosen to just do a you know sort of series of actions and events in each new generation. He he preserved his revelation in a written form that it could be studied and learned and and passed down from generation to generation. And and we see that all the way back in the Old Testament in the way God called his people uh to teach the law, to pass it down from generation to generation, that they might know. And you think about a you know, like Psalm 78, you know, that that picture of of uh families passing down the the law of God from generation to generation, that children yet unborn would know the God who did these things and what he did, right? And so uh that's just who God is, that's how God works. He's revealed himself in in word, but then within his word i i if you study closely, you you see there's a warning that knowledge can puff up. Yes, right? Yes, and and so we we do need to take that and and be thoughtful about that and and recognize that increase in knowledge does not always lead to an increase in obedience or character or anything like that. And there's a lot to to talk about there, but it it it also doesn't always run in the opposite direction, that that having less knowledge means you have more love. Yeah, in fact, you often see passages that that uh weave the two together, you know. So I think of uh like like Philippians one, when um Paul says uh he tells the Philippians how he's praying for them, and he's praying that their love would abound more and more with all knowledge and discernment, right? And so he wants them to grow in love, he wants them to be more loving people. We could talk about how that translates into action with knowledge and discernment, right? And so he's not thinking of those as you know, you can either know God and have discernment, or you can love God and love people, but he's he's wanting to see those woven together in their own.
Jon:Yeah, it's not an either or it's a both and right, right? Second Peter 3, 18, but grow in the grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ. There's this continual this growth in grace, love, a life that is cultivating the fruit of the spirit and knowledge. We we we can't grow in what we don't know. Um I was talking, oh, I don't know if it was in a sermon just recently, but uh sharing with people that we will always we will always know a little bit more than we do. But what we want to try to do is to to decrease that gap in that we're applying the truth that we know. But you're never going to apply more than you know. It's just it doesn't make sense, right? Right. And so yeah, I I I reject the uh the false dichotomy of you know, it's it's either knowledge or experience, or it's you know, uh it's theology or loving people. And it's like my theology informs me to love people, to love God.
Matt:Right.
Jon:And we need to lean into that more. Everyone needs to be a theologian. And and and but theology applied, right? And and so and that's worked out in many ways, but let's talk about some practical ways um by which a church benefits from uh a pastor or a culture of intentional theological training. And I can think of a few uh that came to my mind, and you might think of some other ones, um, but uh theologically trained leaders, what they bring to the table is doctrinal clarity, uh, sound preaching, wise pastoral care, discernment that you'd already talked about, uh we'd say gospel-centered leadership, and the ability to navigate uh complex issues with biblical wisdom. Now, don't get mad at me about this one, but there were it was years ago I was sitting in your practical theology cohort the first time I went down for the for the first um uh kind of class in the D-Men program, and you walked through uh kind of four categories of we wouldn't call it theological tree. I'm sure it would be. Uh it was practical.
Matt:I call it practical theology or practical theological tree. Okay, so if I don't remember all four doors.
Jon:You know, this one and the ability to navigate complex issues with biblical wisdom. Do you want to talk a little bit about um just navigating with practical theology um and wisdom and discernment in that way? And what are your categories again? Yeah, yeah, yeah. To refresh me and everyone else who is listening.
Matt:I'll start with those and uh I won't quiz you. Uh so I already got the degree, it's over there. That's right. You've got the degree. Uh you don't need to uh need to worry about an exam. So um so the the idea is uh you know, first the word triage just it comes from uh the word sort, and we we use it primarily in medical context where uh you come to the emergency room and they're they're triaging your need to determine the the severity or urgency of the issue. Um so that that's what the word triage, and then um our president Southern uh Dr. Albert Moeller, about 20 years ago coined the term theological triage that that um several books have been written about since uh at least coined the term to describe a particular way of thinking about doctrines. And so theological triage then is sorting doctrine to determine its severity, its urgency, uh, or we might just think of it in terms of its centrality to the faith, right? So when we're thinking about theology, we're thinking about everything from the Trinity, you know, the person of God, uh, how has God revealed Himself as Father, Son, and Spirit. And we could also think about something um like particular interpretations on eschatology, you know, what's going to happen at the end of the day. Well, those are those are in two different categories. Yeah, and so theological triage is a a means of sorting those to recognize that both are important, but they're not equally important. And they they don't bear an equal urgency if we have a you know a new believer. We we care much more about them understanding who God is than we care necessarily about in instructing them in the various views on you know uh what's gonna happen at at the end of time. What state or what millennium are we living in, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly, exactly. Um, and and then they also help us to um discern a bit at the at the local church level just uh what it looks like to partner together for the gospel. So um to put it kind of simply, you know, if you if you're talking about a third order issue, you you may have uh differing opinions even in your own congregation, but but manage to to still um you know have fellowship together, serve the Lord together, have a healthy church together. Uh that might be something like particular views on on the millennium.
Jon:Yeah, sure.
Matt:Um you know, in most churches that you could have multiple views uh among the church and even among the elders and be no concern. Um in the uh a second order view is is often uh or a second order doctrine is often a a doctrine that actually divides churches uh by design. So here we would be uh talking about something like baptism. Yeah, that's right. Um, you know, pa paedo-baptists believe that uh we ought to baptize infants as a sign of the covenant. Uh Creobaptists, like you and I, deny that. And uh we believe that baptism is reserved for uh confessing Christians. Like the New Testament. So exactly. And so uh, you know, the there's just a reality that uh uh Presbyterians and Baptists have separated on that issue for a reason. Uh however, what theological triage helps us recognize is uh that second order issue is distinct from a first order issue, uh say the the Trinity or the gospel, various other issues, the person of Christ, the work of Christ. And and essentially theological triage helps us to sort out our doctrine so we're not reacting to uh differences on the Trinity in the same way that we we react on differences in um eschatology.
Jon:The difference between you know a Presbyterian and a Mormon. Right, right, right. Theological triage says you're not both Christians, right? Yeah.
Matt:Um there's a greater severity uh when we are different on first order issues.
Jon:And I think it's important to note, and uh it's said many times, you know, if everything is a gospel issue, nothing's a gospel issue, right? And so we we do say like first order gospel issues. One of the ways that uh I you know I've talked to my church about it is thinking about your capital C convictions. These are the these are the these are the hills that you die on. And I've tried to instruct people that like don't have a thousand hills to die on, but you do need to know like I'm planting my flag here, and this is this is the test of fellowship, right? Right of almost orthodoxy, we would say. And then there's your second tier. I call these the lowercase C convictions. This is where you find your your church, right? This is where you so you're not in a church where you have not like uh fighting for what you believe in all the time, right? You know, and then then your your third tier, maybe those are your preferences, uh, style of music, uh, or or maybe not quite preferences. They they might be you know convictions, but like we're I'm okay if we're a little bit different on this.
Matt:Um and and you see that even in the New Testament. I mean, I think in you know, First Corinthians uh 15, Paul says, uh I delivered to you what was of first importance, right? So in other words, he's a he's asserting in that text what I focused on was top tier. Yes, most important. We we we might say first order. Um and and then you also have passages like uh Romans uh 14 and 15 where uh Paul talks about these kind of disputable matters. This starts to get into the question you actually asked me about practical theological. Yeah, yeah, let's go there. Um because he you know he identifies these issues in which he he is quite comfortable to acknowledge that some Christians are gonna have different convictions on a matter than others. So theological triage is about sorting doctrine to establish uh urgency with particular claims about the faith. Uh practical theological triage is a means of applying our theology carefully and acknowledging that there are uh similarly different levels of uh counsel given in scripture, and and that's gonna work out in our practical theology or our our applied theology in a variety of ways. And so the um system that that I work off of, the four the grid that I work off of is um is just four tiers. Uh it goes command, uh wisdom, conscience, preference. And so a command is basically something where God has said clearly what to do or what not to do. And so to transgress a command is to commit sin. Yes, right. It's very very clear you're to define the law of God. Uh an issue of wisdom is a tier beneath that. Uh it it it can certainly lead to sin, but there's there's a category in scripture we say. It all the time in the Proverbs where something is labeled as foolish but not quite sinful. And so the illustration I always go to is Proverbs 7. The wise man says he he perceived this uh foolish, uh naive young man, and he's walking down the street uh late at night, alone uh on the the street near her corner, and and eventually, as the the chapter concludes, he ends up in the bed with another woman. Uh he he commits adultery. And so I like to read that passage with my students and ask, okay, at what point did this man sin? Right? And and the reality is he didn't sin by being out late at night, right? He didn't sin by talking to this woman, right? Uh you know, he he he didn't sin by going out alone. Uh he he clearly sinned eventually. He he defied the command of God when he committed adultery, but but the category of wisdom and and its counterpart folly, it it gives us a secondary category where you can recognize, okay, it it might not have been sinful for him to be out alone late at night and uh on the corner near her house, but morally it was stupid. Yeah. It was not a good idea. And and so wisdom helps us discern those paths that are likely to lead to righteousness, and and then those paths conversely that are likely to lead to to folly or or sin.
Jon:Something my dad used to say to me growing up. He'd say, Son, nothing good happens after midnight. Right. That's right. I'm like, but dad, I'm just gonna hang out. You need to be home. And that's wisdom. There's a lot of wisdom in that and now as a father, I'm like, oh yeah, absolutely. Yeah, dad, nothing good happens after 10 o'clock.
Matt:But when you become a dad, those things you want to elevate them to command.
Jon:Yeah, you start to say, hey, there was a lot of wisdom there. Uh you you've you've lived a little bit longer than I have. Yeah. All right.
Matt:So the first two. So uh command and wisdom, and then uh conviction is basically combining wisdom and personal experience, is how I think about that. So uh think about uh what Paul says in uh First Corinthians, where he the whole discussion in chapters eight and nine about uh meat sacrificed to idols.
Jon:Yeah, okay, yep.
Matt:And and so uh he talks about how their their consciences uh were wounded because of former association, right? And and so the the the situation there is is it right or wrong to eat this meat sacrificed to idols? And this is one of those instances where Paul says, I think it would be fine, but here's why I wouldn't do it in certain circumstances. Obviously, I'm paraphrasing.
Jon:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Matt:But the the point is uh some people are gonna possess particular convictions that are that they may correspond to biblical wisdom in some sense, but they're deeply personal, right? They're informed by their own experience, and so maybe it's a past pattern of sin, maybe it's having observed um folly in someone else's life that led to destruction. And they just say, Okay, for me, I know this goes beyond what God commands of us, but for me, I'm just gonna hold tightly here. Uh my my conscience is narrow on this issue, and I'm I'm not gonna engage in this or that, or while others can, I can't kind of add it to exactly, yeah. And it's it's deeply personal, yeah, right. And and so I th I think wisdom is generally a wide path that that most Christians can agree on. We can maybe debate certain things, is this wise or not? But but conviction by its definition is personalized because it combines experience, and your experience is different than my experience. That includes present tense. So uh you live in New England, I live in Kentucky.
Jon:You know, what what welcome to North of the Mason Dixon, by the way. Yeah, that's right. It's good to have you up here.
Matt:Treating me well so far. Uh so you know what is uh you know, what you might consider inappropriate in your context might might be permissible in my context. What might I might consider inappropriate in my context might be permissible in your context. Again, we're working on the conversation. Yeah, you know, I just thought of it now, but like Yeah, you have to really think carefully about context as you're thinking about conviction, because and I think that's exactly what is happening in um Romans 14 and 1 Corinthians 8 and 9, as uh the gospel is crossing cultural boundaries. And especially in Romans 14, there's the Jewish Christian Christian, the Gentile Christian debate there. And and so you've got two cultural backgrounds, two historical uh understandings of of what matters and doesn't matter, and and Paul's trying to lead them toward unity, right? Yes. So so in matters of conviction, I think the the New Testament commands us to uh respect each other's consciences, respect each other's personal convictions, uh, but to to not bind one another's conscience on uh matters that truly belong in that category. And then uh the the fourth category is is just what I label preference, and and that's essentially something that is I would just say morally benign. Uh it may have some loose connection to scripture in some sense, but as it relates to life and godliness before the Lord, it's it's primarily a function of taste, uh, background, culture, even life stage.
Jon:What um what would be something just practically uh that would fall into that category?
Matt:Yeah, I mean, honestly, many, many things fall into that category uh because uh there are just so many things you you sort out on a regular basis. So um let me just I'm let me just think of some things that might uh impact a local church in particular. So like I would say like the particular style of music. Okay, yeah. So um, you know, I think the content, uh the there are conversations uh about content that are a little closer to uh doctrinal matters and you know, we want to be singing truth, but uh the amount of instrumentation, uh the the particular style of music, uh those are largely functions of preference, right? How it's presented, kind of how it's presented, um you know, musicians on the platform versus on the on the floor. Yep, absolutely. Uh, you know, how we dress on Sunday mornings would be another issue of preference. I mean, again, it's just very culturally informed. And and you may you may have a few people that you know hold that as a sort of conviction based on some sort of experience or just what they were taught growing up or something like that. Um, but but largely it's it if we really drill down to it, it it's really just a matter of I just I just think it'd be better to do this. You know, you have just given a biblical reason for this.
Jon:This is a living example of why theology matters and why it's important to have pastor theologians that can think through these categories to help the others in your con in the congregation. Because a lot of times when there's like strife and sometimes even rifts that could lead to disunity, it's because certain things are in the wrong category of like, well, my preference, I'm treating it as though it's like it's first order. It's a first order of of it's a command.
Matt:Yeah. And that's one of the principles of triage, right? I mean, you go back to the emergency room, you know, if a person comes in with a lingering cough, we don't treat them in the same way as if a person comes in having just been in a car accident, right? Right. Uh there's an urgency that that uh informs how we respond, right? And it would be malpractice if we if we got things out of order. And I think we see similar things, we can do similar similar uh errors doctrinally, uh, but then on a on a level of applied theology, there's that temptation to to treat distinctions and preference as if uh the person is failing the command of God. Right. And I think convictions, uh personal convictions are especially dangerous because again, they are informed by personal experience.
Jon:Yeah. And and and the and the challenge can be is when a personal conviction is understood as a universal conviction that you you seek to bind others' consciences to that thing that is meaningful to you. A sign of maturity is recognizing it's a personal conviction. Right. And and and resting in that. Um but yeah, I've seen I've seen in my own experience where um the the elevation of preference and just trying to help people like this is this is where you land on this. This is fantastic. You can be there, and I want you to be there. Um, but recognizing what category that belongs to. And and I think in doing so, everything that you just talked about, especially in in practical theology, this this helps to strengthen the health of a church and the growth of a congregation. Like I said, it's a living example of why theology matters for the church, so that we can think through um these various issues and still retain brotherly affection, partnership in the gospel, knowing who we can and can't partner with. Um yeah, promoting the unity of the church.
Matt:Yeah, I appreciate you making that connection because often people think that theology leads to division. And I I think what we were just talking through there is is how theology can promote unity. Right, and and how having a a theological grounding for how we operate and how we speak about different issues uh can actually promote unity in the church rather than division.
Jon:Yeah, and I think that's just just just wonderful. So um thinking through theologically, yeah, strengthens a church, grows a church, unifies a church, that is pleasing to God. And that's what God desires for his church. This is a great conversation. Yeah, and we are already at time. But I I mean I could just go on this for a long time, but I feel like we just scratched the surface. But then again, I hope that uh just having this conversation is encouraging. I mean, you've encouraged me, and I hope that those that are listening are also just encouraged to think carefully about theology and uh to to look at it as a very good thing uh for their their own pursuits, and also, you know, as you're looking at your pastors and your leaders, that you want them to be uh theologians that are constantly growing. You know, as we started out at the beginning, not that they went to seminary, you know, and then they're just trying to pull back on everything that they've learned, but you know, that continuing education because the whole church needs it. We are a body of people growing uh in in grace and knowledge. It's a beautiful thing, especially when we're all aligned on this.
Matt:Yeah, absolutely. And I it I think we could have a whole nother conversation about the value of theological training for pastors in particular, because you think about Titus one, Paul speaks of a qualification for pastors, for elders, for overseers, uh, that they're able to instruct in sound doctrine and correct those who oppose it. Yeah. And and so that presupposes an operational knowledge that you're able to instruct in doctrine and you're able to correct when others are are uh teaching falsely. Oh, yeah. You you see you see it's an important part of stewardship in the local church.
Jon:Absolutely. Yeah, the expectations there both on the positive and the negative command, and you see it throughout uh first and second Timothy as well. Um Paul's serious about it. Absolutely. And I think it's yeah, it's a worthwhile conversation. We should think about doing that. Well, Matt, thank you for joining me on the podcast. And again, just scratching the surface, but hopefully it wets some people's appetites to think about theology. I think your uh your categories of practical theology are so helpful, and um, that's definitely you know a good nugget from this one.
Matt:So thanks for having me.
Jon:Yeah, absolutely. I want to thank you for listening to the Pleasing God Podcast. If you have any questions, I'd love to hear from you. You could reach out at questions at pleasing godpodcast.org and remember First Thessalonians 4 3 this is the will of God for sanctification.
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